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What Happened on Earth?
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Joined: 17 May 2007
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Location: Ken in Arkansas, as forum Poster & Member

Post reference link - PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:56 pm    Post subject: let's define this further
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At first I thought 'we' were having a definition problem. On a second look, I agree with you, let's define this further.
Quote:
Yes, any creature is ultimately on some level, a "Child of God," largest down to the smallest living thing.
This was specifically speaking to living sentient (aware of oneself) animals. Of course the plants are living. One wonders if worms are sentient (aware of themself), some wonder about plants. I know if one sticks a worm with a needle it will recoil in seeming pain.

Semantically, in wording, the following sentence is also true.
Even light, rocks, and distance are Brain-Children of God. God is the One who has defined them. God by definition is "The Creator."
somanyquestions wrote:
However, what about different levels of human "children of God"?
Also, if everything is a "child of God" (since I am an animal lover) what about the animals? Are they heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ?

From God's viewpoint, no creature, part of the expression of His Love, in creation, in giving His creatures life, is less important than another. The Bible says, "For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body." -- Romans 8:22-23

But not all of creation is made in "His Image" to reflect His Love directly, in intimate communion with Him. Mankind was created for that. This "image of God" is what leads to the "heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ." -- Romans8:18-23

Yet i think we are getting a little bit ahead of the subject. Heirs to the kingdom is one of the 'going to happen' occurances. We Christians are more like this text right now. "Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons." -- Galatians 4:1-5
somanyquestions wrote:
And, if animals or trees are "children of God" what about baptism? If we believe that anything that our Creator has created that has faith in Christ Jesus is "His child" then aren't we saying that there are no different levels
of children? What a can of worms this will open!
26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Galations 3:26-27 King James Version
I feel like you are looking at both sides of the coin at the same time, somanyquestions. -- Worms don't need baptism. They are not sinners.
Quote:
we need to know real quick if "WE" are a perverted Child of God.
It seems this is where 'we' are in this conversation. A rock is a brain child of God, but if its molecules evaporate away from somekind of 'chemical reaction' it stops being a rock, and becomes a nothing, or at best, undefined rock molecules in space. You surely would not call it a rock anymore. Maybe a perverted rock, while the acid is eating away at it, but not just 'one of God's rocks'. It is one of God's acid covered disintegrating soon to be not rocks. But the rocks are not sinners.

Likewise, your favorite pet pooch is a wonderful 'creature brain child' of God. God thought the dog up, and then created the first one, no one else can do that. God created pet pooch, gave it to you, and everybody is happy. If it gets rabies though, it might still be a dog, (we would say rabid dog because most people would understand it is not just "a dog.") But the rabid dog would not be your pet pooch anymore, maybe a pooch, but you wouldn't pet it.

Some things defy definition. Sin is one of them. God gives the best definition for it. "Sin is transgression of the law." When a creature is not something God creates it to be, then it is sin. God has created rabid dogs in this world. They happen. In the bigger picture which we are discussing you are right there are different levels. -- 1John3:4

For our purposes, let's make the distinction this way:
A child of God -- A human being following all the light they have about God and His desires. A human servant of God.
A son of God -- Belonging to a class of sentient creatures following all the light they have about God and His desires. A created understanding servant of God.

A sinner is not a son of God. A human or angelic sinner, at best, is a 'perverted,' 'corrupted' brain child of God.

Often the Bible is the only place we can find really good reasons for the way things are. The results from the 'perversion' of Lucifer through Pride is something we live with on planet Earth daily.

"I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies." -- Romans8:18-23
Quote:
we need to know real quick if "WE" are a perverted Child of God.
It seems this is where 'we' are in this conversation.

I am a complete and loving child of God. I love God the Father and my Lord who is named Jesus. I desire to please Him. Though often i feel to fall short, I want and desire to please Him. Often i do please my Lord. Sometimes i do not.
If I were a perverted child of God and did not care, pleasing God wouldn't matter to me.
If I were a perveted child of God, and did care if I pleased Him, through fear, or love, I would be seeking the truth of how to do that, please God. As a perverted child of God you would know you almost never please God. In that state of spiritual perversion, one knows, you might incur God's judgment. He could disown you. He could destroy you. One just doesn't believe He will. Lord God have mercy on us all.

If one thought they were a perverted child of God, what do they do about it. You mentioned baptism.

I could keep typing, but will stop, and ask, What do you folks think/feel about it?

Sincerely, in Christ, Ken
Jesus comes. Period.


Last edited by ___ on Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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debonnaire



Joined: 25 Jun 2007
Posts: 94
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Post reference link - PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:50 am    Post subject:
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I agree that the animals canít be sinners.
Even when pet dogs know that what they are doing is wrong , it is not on a moral basis , it is just that they have been conditioned by their master (man). For God has said to Adam that he will have predominance on the animals and all the creation.
I believe animals have a soul (different from those of the human for every thing in the creation has been created according to its own species) but they have no spirit. And rocks and plants have no soul in my opinion.

The word spirit is the same word than breath
God breathed in Adam a breath of life (spirit) and man became a living being (meaning that man became aware of living in the presence of God). The spirit is what makes the direct relation possible with the Creator.
I believed that what is written of Adamís creation in Genesis is (also) prophetic events of the 2nd creation. The second creation with Jesusí resurrection is a bit of the same pattern as we see in the gospel that Jesus breathed on the disciples after his resurrection, like God breathed on Adam after he had felt asleep.
Our communion is with the Father and the Son , and we announce Life eternal , for the One who is the Life and Resurrection has breathed on us when we have believed on the Gospel [Jesus crucified for our transgression].
Sin is what makes man separated from God, sin is what defiles the spirit (heart) of man.
In the book of Ecclesiast, God said He will bring trial upon men and they will know then that they are only beasts , for both man and beast have been created on the 6th day. [6 is a number connected with man, flesh, world and beast, but I diverge].
God compare the non regenerated man (who has no communion with Him) to a beast.

Coming back to the creation, God will make a new creation with a new earth and sky. Isnít it funny that the last created being He made (man) was the first He decided to (re)create ?
Ahead of us , at Jesusí return , is a new creation without SIN nor any of the consequences of sin : pain , tears , death , sickness etcÖ
Already we have received the premise of the world to come, we have been recreated from inside for He has sent the Holy Spirit. When we are filled with the Holy Spirit , we understand without any intellectual effort that everything belongs to Him and that He made the whole Creation according to His will and by His Word. We just want to praise Abba Father and maybe sing PSALM 148, psalm speaking of the whole creation praising God, even the animals or the elements or the unanimated (without a soul) planets. When we are filled with the Holy Spirit we see the Creation as one thing bearing the signature of His maker, even if this Creation as gone wild.
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Post reference link - PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:29 pm    Post subject: soul & spirit
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Dear bro Debonnaire: You wrote>>
debonnaire knowledgably wrote:
Coming back to the creation, God will make a new creation with a new earth and sky. Isnít it funny that the last created being He made (man) was the first He decided to (re)create ? ...
The second creation with Jesusí resurrection is a bit of the same pattern as we see in the gospel that Jesus breathed on the disciples after his resurrection, like God breathed on Adam after he had felt asleep.
I had not thought about those things quite that way. Thanks for the previous excellent post and thoughts. Your latest post this thread is most excellent. This is the response i have been moved to give. I agree with much of your post, yet we have a definition discussion on spirit and soul working up. Man, there is a bunch in your post much i consider 'right on'. Yet i think maybe the following could be discussed further. These words "soul" and "spirit" have been so junked up in mystery it is unbelievable to me. Junked up by the centuries of superstition christendom has attached to them. They are 'sleeper' concepts, soul and spirit, and facts in God's economy. But what do they really mean?
You wrote>>
Quote:
The word spirit is the same word than breath ...
OKay. Right On. Fact in my understanding.
Quote:
God breathed in Adam a breath of life (spirit) and man became a living being ...
Yep, right on again, other than the word you are using for soul is living being. King James version says "living soul." "Man became a living soul."
He did not 'have a soul' Adam was a soul. -- Genesis2:7
Quote:
I believe animals have a soul (different from those of the human for every thing in the creation has been created according to its own species) but they have no spirit. And rocks and plants have no soul in my opinion.
Now that you get to the state of animals your thesis seems stressed. If spirit is breath of life from God, don't animals have breath and life, from God? Again, these terms have been junked up over centuries.

Note the following two texts from the following word search:
became+a+living+soul_search
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." -- Genesis2:7
"And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea." -- Revelation16:3
I think this last text in Revelation is talking of all the fishes in the deep blue sea, seeing it has been turned into "the blood of a dead man."

Let me post a few Scriptures, (yeah like any one is going to say noooo don't type that).
Let's keep these two texts above in mind, about the "Breath of Life from God" and every living soul in the sea.
"And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die." -- Genesis6:17
"And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life." -- Genesis7:15
"All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died." -- Genesis7:22 -- Genesis7

"Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?" -- Ecclesiastes3:21
"For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity." -- Ecclesiastes 3:19 -- Ecclesiastes3:18-22

Like I said earlier, it is my heartfelt conviction, these words "soul" and "spirit" have been so junked up in mystery by the centuries of superstition Christendom has attached to them.

Without body and breath creatures, including men and women, are dead. A man's spirit is his genetic blueprint, memories, and identifying traits. A man's, or woman's, consciousness and understanding will not work without a body. The natural man has a natural body, subject to death. The redeemed will have a body free of sin and death. The soul of man is his spirit in control of his body. There is no soul without the Breath of Life. -- 1Corinthians2:9-14 -- Job20:3 -- James2:26

Consider a computer. Consider the body as a computer's hardware. Consider the spirit as computer software. The only way it computes is if both are working properly together in real time. Our spirit is a subset of His Spirit and living breath given to us by grace. If God takes it back, it isn't ours anymore, unless God gives that "Soul" life again.

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" -- John11:25

At death, a person's page is completed in the "books of record" in Heaven. That person's "spirit" (genetic blueprint, memories, identifying traits) indeed returns to God. But his thoughts perish. He has no more to do with "anything that is done under the sun." "His sons come to honor and he knows it not." It is man's position to rest in death, until the day appointed for him to be resurrected, or given life again. On that day, God will recombine spirit and body. On that day, a man will live again. God can make a man, or any creature a living soul any time He wants. The Almighty God has this power. -- Revelation20:12-- Job20:3 -- Ecclesiastes12:7 -- Ecclesiastes9:5-7 -- Ecclesiastes3:18-22 -- Psalm146:4 -- Job14:20-21 -- John6:39-40

See the following texts as you are able:
"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." -- Psalm146:4
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." -- Ecclesiastes9:5-6
"Thou prevailest for ever against him, and he passeth: thou changest his countenance, and sendest him away. His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them." -- Job14:20-21 -- 1Corinthians15:35-58 -- John3:35-36 -- John11:23-27 -- Genesis3:4 -- Genesis2:7 -- Genesis7:15 -- Revelation16:3 -- 1Corinthians2:9-14 -- Job20:3 -- James2:26 -- Revelation20:12 -- Ecclesiastes12:7 -- Ecclesiastes9:5-7 -- Ecclesiastes3:18-22 -- Psalm146:4 -- Job14:20-21 -- John6:39-40 -- Hebrews11:39-40 -- Genesis3:22-24 -- John10:1 -- John10:9-10

"Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them;
While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain:
In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened,
And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of musick shall be brought low;
Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. -- Ecclesiastes12:1-7 -- Ecclesiastes12:1-14

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:" -- John11:25 -- John11:21-26

your brother in Jesus, ken
Jesus comes. Period.
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