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What Happened on Earth?
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Post reference link - PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:18 pm    Post subject: What Happened on Earth?
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The Bible says, When God finished creating this world, He said it was very good. What Happened? Why is there sorrow, pain, death, in this world.? What else has God made in His Universe? Do God's other creatures have the same problem with sin we have? Why is there sorrow, pain, death, and all those other nasty things? What is God doing in Earth? -- Truthfully, in Jesus, What is The Plan of Salvation all about?

Seriously, What happened on Earth? I can think of a world without all the nasty things in this one, and i am not even God. When God created this world He had a Plan. Was that plan derailed by Satan, or did God just let / make it happen for His own good reasons?

This category is where we can explore these questions above. Be prepared, the answers may not be what you expect.

Shocked
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Child_of_God



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Post reference link - PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:40 pm    Post subject: Derailed??
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Bro Ken,
If we believe that our Father is omni everything....why would we believe that Satan "derailed" God's plan? If Satan had the power to derail anything that God made without God letting him, wouldn't we all be Satan's already and the trials in this life that we face would be unnecessary? And, since we believe God had a plan in the beginning (...as the master engineer I'm pretty sure he had a plan...) shouldn't we be convinced that God knew about Satan's nasty habit of messing things up and therefore worked that into the plan? Wouldn't it be more likely that God let Satan do his thing so that others would learn and see how just, faithful and true our Father is compared to Satan?
Maybe I just didn't understand the statement. Wink
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Psalm 25:7
Remember not the sins of my youth, nor my transgressions: according to thy mercy remember thou me for thy goodness' sake, O LORD.
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Child_of_God



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Post reference link - PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:53 pm    Post subject: Remember Job!
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Bro Ken,
...I forgot to mention Job in my last post. Remember how God let Satan do everything but kill Job to prove Job's faithfulness? I never liked the book of Job because it seemed to me like God was playing a game with Satan as Job as the chess piece. I still really don't like it, but as I've grown in my Christianity, I see the value and the lessons that it teaches. Not only that God has more power than Satan could ever have, and that Satan doesn't care about us, he just wants what he wants (control and power), but also when I think things are bad for me, I realize that they could be ever so much worse!
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Psalm 25:7
Remember not the sins of my youth, nor my transgressions: according to thy mercy remember thou me for thy goodness' sake, O LORD.
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Post reference link - PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 10:32 am    Post subject: Master Engineer
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Dear Child_of_God, Maranatha
As I mentioned in my first post this morning
ken impressed wrote:
"I am impressed at how much Truth you have said in such short profound ways."
Child_of_God wrote:
If we believe that our Father is omni everything....why would we believe that Satan "derailed" God's plan?
You are exactly right, we would Not believe that. God our Father truly is the "Master Engineer," whether you talk in terms of our train climbing up the mountain, or our Archictect who has Engineered it all. -- "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." -- Isaiah45:7 -- Isaiah7:15 -- Isaiah7:14-16 -- Isaiah5:20 -- Isaiah41:23 -- Malachi4:1

Note the following: "What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time. For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry. There is one come out of thee, that imagineth evil against the LORD, a wicked counsellor." -- Nahum1:9-11

I am interested in this fine line of God "letting" something happen versa "making" something happen. Seems a fine line to me.

I understand you are saying the opposite of Job's wife, Child_of_God. But note what Job says:
"But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips." -- Job2:10

Later Job says: "When I looked for good, then evil came unto me: and when I waited for light, there came darkness." -- Job30:26

Remember the Psalmist wrote: "Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for evermore." -- Psalm37:27
Child_of_God wrote:
Maybe I just didn't understand the statement.
Not being sure just what statement it was that you maybe did not understand, . . . can't help you there. Reply and tell me which one and i will clarify.

Your brother in Jesus, ken
Jesus comes. Period.
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debonnaire



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Post reference link - PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:13 am    Post subject:
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Hello Ken and Child_of_God Smile

What happened on Earth?

According to the scriptures , it seems there has been a rebellion in Heavens before man 's disobedience on Earth. Things that happen in the spiritual realm have always ? often ? consequences down there.

Anyway, the first human beings were not taken for innocent,
[even if it was given to them promise and hope of rehabilitation and redemption].
The first humans have chosen their own way, wisdom, "freedom" and argument of the devil instead of remaining within the sphere of God's authority and love.
They have prefered to be the judges of what they live[good or bad] instead of continuing in abiding in the Almighty.
Going outside of God's sovereignty and authority (disobedience) have tremendous consequences on things that have been created, that's why God is still Sovereign even if creatures choose to live outside of His Authority.

Truthfully, in Jesus, What is The Plan of Salvation all about?

Because of the rebellion of both angels and mankind, it was necessary that Authority from God to be reestablished, that's why the Son said "Here I come to do your will". He came so that mankind should be reestablished back within the dimension of God's Authority, [it seems that it is not possible that fallen angels can be reestablished back within the sphere of God's authority and obededience]. To bring back man under God’s authority it was necessary that only a man did the job , so the Son emptied Himself of His glory to do the will of the Father as a man. By His constant obedience to the will of the Father, He did not became the Son (for he was already) but He has been made LORD and Heir of everything until all God's enemies are no more and His Kingdom is fully established in the universe. Salvation consists of bringing back the creation (with the full agreement of the creatures ) into God 's bossom.

Was that plan derailed by Satan, or did God just let / make it happen for His own good reasons?

I agree that the Almighty could not have His plan derailed by a created being, although Stan succeeded in part. But God has always the "last word" soon or later (All is accomplished).
I am not really sure, why God allowed this “failure” to happen. What I know is that Trust and Love (of the creatures) have to be tested, to make sure they are solid and can stand eternity.
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debonnaire



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Post reference link - PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:59 am    Post subject:
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Just wanted to add :

God just let / make it happen for His own good reasons?

I don’t believed God made it happen deliberately , for this is one of the Mormon teachings.
I believe He was grieved when Adam and Eve disobeyed. As He was grieved when the whole Earth was corrupted in the times of Noah.
For God has a heart of a Father and is a jealous God.

By His foreknowledge though, the Lamb of God was prepared before the foundation of the world. He was God's secret wisdom who was prophesied and now has been revealed. And all those who come to Him , who have been chosen since the beginning , will have in eternity a more blessed position and condition through and within Christ than what they would had if man had never been disobedient Question
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Post reference link - PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 9:05 pm    Post subject: Training wheels from God
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Dear bro debonnaire and Child_of_God: -- maranatha

Let us look at this subject of God allowing / letting, vs making / planning, straight up. By straight up, and straight on I mean this: Either God is everything, or God is nothing at all.

Either God the creator is sovereign over His creation, or God is not.
Likewise
Either Satan has power of his own, or Satan has no real power, other than that which God gives him.

Remember this text:
"And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;" -- Revelation3:7

"I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him." -- Ecclesiastes3:14

"Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." -- Proverbs30:6

Of course this next passage is talking of Jesus, "the righteous man." The "who" is God, the Father. "Who raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings? he gave them as the dust to his sword, and as driven stubble to his bow." -- Isaiah41:2 -- Isaiah41:1-4

"The LORD lifteth up the meek: he casteth the wicked down to the ground." -- Psalm147:6 -- Psalm113:7

"But God is the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another." -- Psalm75:7

"In the day of prosperity be joyful, but in the day of adversity consider: God also hath set the one over against the other, to the end that man should find nothing after him." -- Ecclesiastes7:14

"I will take no bullock out of thy house, nor he goats out of thy folds. For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine. If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof." -- Psalm50:9-12

"Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High: And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me. But unto the wicked God saith, What hast thou to do to declare my statutes, or that thou shouldest take my covenant in thy mouth? Seeing thou hatest instruction, and casteth my words behind thee." -- Psalm50:14-17

"Thou sittest and speakest against thy brother; thou slanderest thine own mother's son. These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes. Now consider this, ye that forget God, lest I tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver. Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me: and to him that ordereth his conversation aright will I shew the salvation of God." -- Psalm50:20-23

Having just finished reading the entire chapter of Psalm 50 let me say this: Lord have mercy on us all.

It seems to me the first step is determining if God is God, or just god. -- "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." -- Faith does not mean believing the unbelievable. God does make sense. -- Hebrews11:6

People do not understand, nor like the concept of not being in control. Especially when it comes to their own lives. Now, part of the Gospel story, part of the Plan of Salvation says we are supposed to trust God implicitly, like Jesus did. Jesus also taught that God was in complete control.

This Scripture text comes to mind as i form the first draft. "Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me." -- John14:30

That text alone, could start a whole thread. I diverge. To get back on track, (little chuckle thinking of the train posted above), to get back on track . . . . . . .

It seems to me that if God is God, then nothing exists without Him. Nothing. Jesus said, ". . . for without me ye can do nothing." -- John15:5

Let me ask this: How much, about what was going on with Job, did Job know about? I am talking of the back stage, other world, happenings in heaven, when Satan came to present himself before the Lord. How much of all that did Job know about? In fact, thinking of it, when the Lord speaks to Job later, God tells Job that he doesn't know anything, in a questioning sort of way. (little chuckle, way to go God) -- Note that Satan went to heaven bragging about "going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it." But he couldn't touch Job until God said so. In fact, Satan told God, in this interview among the citizens of heaven, with the "sons of God" present, Satan said, "But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face." -- Job1:6-12 -- Job2:1-6

Jesus talked of leaving the 99 for the one (1) lost. It seems the 99 were pretty important. So important, God felt necessary to leave them to rescue us. Seeking the one lost was protecting them. Think about it. If God hadn't been willing to go to the uttermost to keep one lost one, eventually all would be lost. Why did God even bother with this one little world? Who knows how many worlds have never sinned against Him. The animals on this world do not sin. Where does that put us sinful men we are? Does God 'need' us? Think about it. -- ninety+and+nine_search -- John10:16

In fact, later God tells Job, "Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? -- Job38:1-7

So, . . . It seems to me, . . . the first thing to determine is if God is God. Like I asked rhetorically, "How much of this did Job know about? I have no problems with God being God. He can run the Universe any way He wants. I have enough to do just trying to live in the life God gives me here.

The "pride of life" makes it difficult to understand, how little actual choice, God has granted in this world. It is not comfortable to mankind to think they are NOT in control. I have no problems with God's children, in this world, trusting God when things are so bad it is hard to trust anything. I have no problem with God protecting them while staying in the background, like a knowing Father, teaching His children how to live. I also have no problems with God's children, in this world, riding their spiritual bicycles with training wheels and a helmet either. -- 1John2:14-17 -- Ephesians6:10-18

Jesus said, "He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much. If therefore ye have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will commit to your trust the true riches? And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own? -- Luke16:10-12

This principle of us being "joint heirs" with Christ is important here. The fact God made us in His image is important also. -- Romans8:17 -- image_of_God_search

So, right back to it . . . It seems to me, . . . the first thing to determine . . . is if God is God. What do you think? Is there a difference in our perspective and God's.

Truly, in Jesus, Ken
Jesus comes. Period
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